Author Topic: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24  (Read 16281 times)

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« on: August 08, 2010, 05:57:34 PM »
George Elliston and son were cycle makers at 93 Perry Vale up to about 1910, and in late 1910 they secured a patent (10,179/1910) for a rear springing (suspension) system, which they went on to use on the motorcycles they made.
Rear suspension did not come into widespread use on motorcycles until the 1950s, so this really was quite an advanced feature for many years.

George Elliston was joined by Sidney Fell, and they traded as P.V. Motorcycles, taking their initials from the road in which they were based.
Like lots of manufacturers at the time, they bought in engines, carburetters, front forks and other fitments, and built frames to house them in.

Their motorcycles were first announced to the press in September 1911, and they initially sold single-speed belt-drive bikes with different sizes of engine.
The range developed through 1912 and 1913, with the introduction of 3-speed hub gears, by Sturmey Archer and Armstrong. Engine sizes ranged from a 500cc single-cylinder to a 976cc v-twin, all made by J.A.P. of Tottenham.
For 1914, a flat-twin engine by ABC was an option.

The firm continued after the outbreak of WWI, offering just a 269cc two-stroke lightweight (using the popular Villiers engine), with a two-speed countershaft gearbox.

After WWI, they continued with the lightweight bike in a slightly re-designed form, and gradually expanded the range to include more-or-less every size of engine, from 250cc two strokes, 350cc and 500cc four-stroke singles, and a range of v-twins from 500cc up to 1000cc. J.A.P. engines were most commonly used, but engines by Bradshaw and Barr and Stroud were also listed.

The works entered the Isle of Man TT Races in 1923 and 1924, with a 250cc machine taking part in the Lightweight race of 1923, and finishing 12th.
For 1924, a 350cc machine was entered in the Junior TT, and was running in an amazing fourth place on the fourth lap (of six), before being ordered to retire.
I believe that this was because rider R.V. Crauford (a local lad, maybe?) had crashed and damaged the machine, breaking off a footrest.

I'm not sure what happened after the TT - there are a couple of press reviews of bikes in the second half of 1924, but the edition of the Kentish Messenger dated 24/11/24 carries an advert for an auction of machinery, tools etc for the company, which seems like the end of the road.

If anyone has any photos showing the bikes, sales literature or period adverts in publications, I should be grateful to find out about them.

Attached (hopefully) are a couple of pictures - a bike from 1912 430cc v-twin single speeder (top), and a 1923 1000cc v-twin, complete with PV sidecar.

Nick

« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 05:25:29 PM by P.V. Motorcycles »

Offline cardan

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1187
  • Karma: +19/-5
    • View Profile
    • earlymotor.com
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-23
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 08:00:50 AM »
Hi Nick,
Now there's a particularly quirky interest! Do you have a Perry Vale?
There are at least two bike surviving out here in Australia, both of them veteran or perhaps early vintage with JAP twin motors. The one in the photo has been in our local club for many years, and the photo was taken at a rally in the early 1960s. The bike still comes out, but these days it is much shinier and wears its valves "upstairs".
You mentioned buying in parts. I suppose the forks on the bike in the photo are early Brampton - a forerunner to the "usual" Bi-flex? Or were they a special PV thing?
By the way, your photo of the PV-Barr and Stroud V twin is a beauty - well, no, not beauty as the bike it pretty ugly really, but what fun it would be to have a sleeve-valve V twin!
Cheers
Leon

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-23
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 02:38:12 PM »
Thanks for the pic, Leon.

I know of a couple - one in South Australia, which I think is now a 90-bore ohv job, and one in or around Sydney, which is a 770cc side-valve.

I have a couple of heaps of bits:

a 1921 Villiers-engined two-stroke which had all of the rear frame cut off to run a saw-mill, and a c1913 frame and tank, which I am trying to piece together into a going concern: over the years I've managed to get a 654cc JAP v-twin of late 1913/1914, and an Armstrong Mk VII hub.

The forks on the top pic are standard Druid side-springs, those on the B&S outfit are standard Biflexes. They seemed to swap in 1913 for 1914.  
I have a copy of a mid-1914 advert, which shows a machine with the early-type Bramptons, which had central fore-and-aft springs, rather than springs on each side at the top.

I don't think the B&S twin is that bad-looking (some of the early 20s stuff looked a bit odd, before they had the idea of putting the bottom of the curved tube between the engine and the gearbox) - and it was top of the range for 1923!

As above, always scrabbling about for info from the time, pictures, little adverts, big adverts, sales leaflets and so on. It's all good.

Nick

PS - also 'sole agent' for the English 'Dayton' 2-stroke motorcyclet - 162cc two-stroke clip on, of late 13 or 14.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 07:41:31 PM by P.V. Motorcycles »

yebbut

  • Guest
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-23
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 03:32:39 PM »
Log in to SE26 Forum [just google it and you'll go straight there], they have a couple of very good local historians and a history section  who will either find out more  or already know something.

[SE26 is the postal area that covers Perry Vale in S London]

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-23
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2010, 04:58:33 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion.

I've posted on SE23.com (SE23 is Forest Hill, as far as I can tell, and SE26 is Sydenham - I thought Perry Vale came under Forest Hill) and got a bit of info from a local historian (Steve Grindlay) about where the works were (early locations now long gone).

Nick

yebbut

  • Guest
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 05:34:46 PM »

you are right re postcodes but its a fine dividing line, I know I grew up there.

se23forum has a higher than average percentage of tossers; se26 forum also has its fair share but the historians are better informed.

However as you have been in touch with the main man Grindlay already,you may have had all he knows.

It might be worth having a word with Lewisham central library local history section, Grindlay will put you in  touch withthe right person I expect.
Being Lewisham they will probably ask for cash.

There is another historian, Falkor by name, he posts on both sites, who is very good but a bit of a prima donna; an appeal to him might bring him out of whatever sulk he is in this week.
He has huge archives and extensive knowledge of the PV area.

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 05:47:41 PM »
Thanks  - I'll see what I get.
No problems on the SE23 forum, just no replies, other than Steve Grindlay's.

I've been through the microfilmed local papers at the Local History Centre in Manor Lane , but didn't really turn much up, other than a the notice of the bankruptcy sale.

Nick

Offline cardan

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1187
  • Karma: +19/-5
    • View Profile
    • earlymotor.com
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 12:14:58 AM »
"I have a copy of a mid-1914 advert, which shows a machine with the early-type Bramptons, which had central fore-and-aft springs, rather than springs on each side at the top."

Thanks for that - interesting that there could be a "real veteran" (pre-1915) with the early style Brampton fork.

Leon

Offline BlackEagleS

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2015, 10:23:08 AM »
Sorry for resurrecting such an ancient thread but it saves me some typing.

My grandfather used to sell the PV from a shop somewhere around the Sydenham area and was involved in the 1923 and 1924 TT races along with other ‘trials’ like the London to Exeter in 1922 with my (great) Uncle Reg – RC Crawford – on a 976cc PV and a colleague on a 349cc PV ( I have an ancient postcard with his almost unreadable name) – J E Ramfre maybe??

I also have an original 1914 catalogue !! The Perfectly Vibrationless or, due to my Grandfathers vast intake of alcohol, also known as the Pub Vehicle within the family was something of an innovation at the time although I have no idea how well it sold but the catalogue shows quite a number of silver and gold medals at various local trials from 1911 to 1914.

So… does anyone know where I might see one other than the Motor Cycle museum and the odd one online?  Maybe in private hands?

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 09:09:10 AM »
This is my second attempt at replying - the first got bounced by the site.

Very interested to find out more about just about everything in your post, happy to swap info, pics and the like.

Nick

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 09:26:31 AM »
By the way, I have a copy of a 1924 P.V. sales leaflet with a wet-ink stamp for a company called Jillings and Ranger, who were in 11 Balham Park Mansions (tel. Streatham 3295), and I recall a reference to a TE Ranger as being P.V.-mounted in one of the big road trials of the day.

Maybe this is the other man in the postcard?

Nick

Offline BlackEagleS

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2015, 12:26:05 PM »
By the way, I have a copy of a 1924 P.V. sales leaflet with a wet-ink stamp for a company called Jillings and Ranger, who were in 11 Balham Park Mansions (tel. Streatham 3295), and I recall a reference to a TE Ranger as being P.V.-mounted in one of the big road trials of the day.

Maybe this is the other man in the postcard?

Nick


thanks, i have pm'ed you.

now i look a bit more closely at the postcard it does look like roy and given the spider scrawl it could well be t e ranger!!

Offline mini-me

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1084
  • Karma: +19/-24
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2015, 03:39:15 PM »
I see you have found Steve Grindly in se26, he is THE history man for all things SE London

Offline cardan

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1187
  • Karma: +19/-5
    • View Profile
    • earlymotor.com
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2015, 01:18:20 AM »

The same bike mentioned and shown in the second post of this thread. Looks a bit different theses days...

Leon


Offline murdo

  • Advanced Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
  • Karma: +9/-1
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: P.V. Motorcycles - Perry Vale, Forest Hill SE23, 1910-24
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2015, 08:25:33 AM »
Very nice!  Unusual rear suspension?